# Urgent electronic problem (drive pump with 2 switches)
**URL:** https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221
**Category:** Hardware
**Created:** [2 January 2024 20:02 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221 "2024-01-02T20:02:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@marcus-j-davies](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/marcus-j-davies)
#### Post date: [20 January 2024 20:15 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/42 "2024-01-20T20:15:28Z")
And @BartButenaers - just so we all know you're ok, and not suddenly powering the home with your own static discharge.
(and everyone is ok with the event, and everything else in-between)
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### Author:  [@Sean-McG](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Sean-McG)
#### Post date: [20 January 2024 20:22 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/43 "2024-01-20T20:22:09Z")
I did hear from Bart about 6 days ago, I think he has a lot going on at the moment !
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### Author:  [@marcus-j-davies](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/marcus-j-davies)
#### Post date: [20 January 2024 20:23 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/44 "2024-01-20T20:23:55Z")
Thanks @Sean-McG
Reach out Bart if you need 🙏
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### Author:  [@system](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/system)
#### Post date: [3 February 2024 20:24 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/45 "2024-02-03T20:24:13Z")
This topic was automatically closed 14 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.
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### Author:  [@Paul-Reed](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Paul-Reed)
#### Post date: [5 February 2024 08:27 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/46 "2024-02-05T08:27:52Z")
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### Author:  [@Trying\_to\_learn](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Trying_to_learn)
#### Post date: [5 February 2024 08:44 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/47 "2024-02-05T08:44:16Z")
Just to let you all know:
I've heard from Bart and he is ok.
Very Very busy so he extends his apologies for not responding quicker.
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [5 February 2024 12:12 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/48 "2024-02-05T12:12:40Z")
Hi everybody,
An awefull thank a lot from everybody supporting me with feedback above!
Thanks @Trying_to_learn for his mental coaching behind the scenes 😉
And thanks @Paul-Reed for reopening this discussion.
I will read through all the feedback in the next evenings and get back here.
And of course my sincere apologies for only responding after such a long time.
I have only be reading the absolute minimum of Discourse messages, because life got completely in the way between me and Node-RED 😳
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [7 March 2024 22:33 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/49 "2024-03-07T22:33:15Z")
> [@gerry](#):
>
> I ginned up a quick flow and can't test but I think this does what you need
Hi @gerry,
that logic indeed makes sense. Although my heart tells me to put all the logic that way nicely in Node-RED, my brain tells me not to do that. Especially in combination with a Shelly. Because when the wifi is down temporarily for some reason, the pump will not work anymore. Which can have quite problematic results. But of course I could put your logic into a Shelly script, so it runs locally on the Shelly. Lik @E1cid already mentioned a couple of times, it need to be as failsafe as possible. Need to think about which way to go.
> [@Trying\_to\_learn](#):
>
> Outflow MUST BE GREATER than Inflow - or you are going to have/get more problems.
Yes good point. But in this case the amount of water getting into the basement is quite low, so the pump can pump handle it without any problems.
But I have to admit that I was quite surprised: although the water is coming into the basement at very slow speed, I had to remove 25 buckets of water (over an entire day) while I was installing the pump. Quite surprising.
> [@Trying\_to\_learn](#):
>
> You need hysteresis for the pump
Correct. That is why I wanted to install 2 separate switches, to make sure the pump isn't toggling all the time between ON and OFF.
> [@GogoVega](#):
>
> I may have a solution for your script:
> Need a flag:
@GogoVega,
Yes indeed. The above flow from @gerry also does something similar. That was appereantly the missing piece in my way of thinking.
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> I'm guessing that you were wishing to avoid using a pi or other microprocessor to achieve this, but you just wanted to use the bank of 4 relays??
Yes indeed Paul.
I was in a hurry and needed a quick way to do it, with the little material available in my boxes. Couldn't quickly install a Raspberry with Node-RED and all that kind of stuff. So I thought: how can I achieve it with the switches and relais I have, so pure electronics. But my brain did fail on me to compose a solution...
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> If so, consider the diagram below.
Wow that is a very nice diagram. Thanks for taking the time to draw it, and to explain your drawing!
That is a solution I could never invent myself. Really impressive...
So without scripting with pure electronics, that might indeed be the way to go.
> [@IanH](#):
>
> THey have in built in Hysterisis
Hi @IanH,
I was not aware of that. Thanks for sharing!
The biggest problem was the height. After drilling and removing concrete, I was only able to create a hole of 6 cm deep. Because I had to make sure that I didn't allow even more water to enter.
But 6 cm is nearly nothing for pumps, especially with float switches...
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> Just noticed that we haven't heard from Bart since he started wiring up the pump.
> Did anyone warn him about the dangers of wiring mains circuits whilst standing in water??
Oh that is very mean of you Paul! Making fun of my lack of knowledge 😋
> [@BarryMas](#):
>
> That can be combined with a SR-flipflop
Hi @BarryMas,
OMG that is a long time ago that I heard the word "flipflop". Yes indeed I might take that also into account when needing a solution without scripting.
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> the 2 input relays would be energised all of the time, and only de-energised when the water level is high, which is not good practice (and a waste of energy).
Thanks also for reminding me about that! I always forget about these kind of things, but indeed energy consumption is something to certainly keep in mind these days. Good that you mention it!!
> [@SuperNinja](#):
>
> but here is what I would have done:
Hi @SuperNinja,
I see that you also use a Shelly. Which is something I did not think about when I started this discussion. How stupid of me 😳 Is the on-off logic inside your Shelly as a script, or perhaps in that contactor of yours?
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> Back EMF can cause rapid arcing between the relay contacts, leading to quicker degradation and potential welding of the contacts together.
> You may wish consider adding a snubber
Ah damn, you have already tought me that in the past. But I keep forgetting about it. Thanks again for the reminder!!
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [7 March 2024 22:53 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/50 "2024-03-07T22:53:48Z")
BTW my apologies to everybody for not responding earlier. Life got completely in the way between me and Node-RED unfortunately ☹
And thanks again for all the kind support I received. It is very interesting to see the different solutions for the same problem. Although I won't be able to implement all of them, it is very interesting to think about all of it. The more you know, the more creative you become...
I will summarize how it went. I was removing concrete in the basement of my mother in law to create a hole of about 6 cm deep. Couldn't go deeper, because I wouldn't want to risk the water coming in here. Meanwhile my brother in law bought an _ **AquaSensor** _ [pump](https://www.gardena.com/be-nl/producten/pompen/dompelpompen/dompelpomp-11000-aquasensor/970485701.html) from _ **Gardena** _:
I wasn't even aware that something like that existed. At the side you have press buttons to set the height at which it should start and stop operating. So we configured it to start pumping when the water level arises above 4cm and stop pumping when the water level dropped below 1 cm. At it worked immediately very well. So problem was solved even with very low water level altitude.
However I am in a part of my life were everything goes wrong. So one week afterwards, I had suddenly water in my own basement. And I also only have a very low hole for my pump. And at the time being - due to the heavy rainfall - all these Gardena Aquasensor pumps were sold out in Belgium. So I found an alternative, the _ **Flat Level Sensor** _ [pump](https://www.kaercher.com/be/home-garden/pompen/dompelpompen/sp-17-000-flat-level-sensor-16458400.html) from _ **Karcher** _:
The sensor has 2 metal pins, and you can move the sensor vertically to adjust at which height it should start pumping. When the water level lowers very low, it will stop pumping.
But now the problem is that when I lower the sensor of my Karcher pump below 15 cm from the bottom of the pump: then the pump is activating, makes a lot of turbulence in the water, but no water is pumped away. And the Gardena pump - after 4 weeks of running fine - it now has the same behaviour. Getting nuts of it all... Need to contact their Helpdesk again.
_ **P.S. would be useful if one of the moderators could reopen this issue, in case people want to share their feedback. Thanks!!!** _
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### Author:  [@Paul-Reed](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Paul-Reed)
#### Post date: [7 March 2024 23:07 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/51 "2024-03-07T23:07:18Z")
> [@Urgent electronic problem (drive pump with 2 switches)](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/23):
>
> Just noticed that we haven't heard from Bart since he started wiring up the pump. Did anyone warn him about the dangers of wiring mains circuits whilst standing in water?? [bart]
It's strange that the post above [suggesting that you may have been electrocuted](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/23) got 9 likes...
After all of the work you have put into supporting the node-RED community, what does that say about loyalty amongst friends ??
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### Author:  [@Trying\_to\_learn](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Trying_to_learn)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 04:12 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/52 "2024-03-08T04:12:12Z")
It's good to see you back @BartButenaers
Just now I am not quite getting what you mean with what is happening.
Though one thing I would check on both pumps:
**ARE THEY FULLY SUBMERSIBLE??**
Best of luck with things.
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### Author:  [@Trying\_to\_learn](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Trying_to_learn)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 04:14 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/53 "2024-03-08T04:14:11Z")
(Just mentioning)
_Maybe people read that and were supporting your concern - rather than hoping that was what happened_
I do hope that is what their thoughts were.
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 06:35 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/54 "2024-03-08T06:35:02Z")
> [@Paul-Reed](#):
>
> It's strange that the post above [suggesting that you may have been electrocuted](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/23) got 9 likes...
OMG. I hadn't noticed the number of likes. Hmm is this community trying to tell me something 🤔
Will try to join the Japanese Node-RED community. Hopefully they are more nice to their contributors 😉
> [@Trying\_to\_learn](#):
>
> ARE THEY FULLY SUBMERSIBLE??
Just the opposite. They both are supposed to work with very low water levels. But I am not sure yet if that is the case. Meanwhile the heavy rainfall stopped, so it is not that urgent anymore. But I still need to continue to contact their helpdesks why the pumps don't work with low water levels, which is it main reason of existance. To be continued.
> [@Trying\_to\_learn](#):
>
> Maybe people read that and were supporting your concern
I don't buy that explanation. They were just smiling with the idea of me being vaporized in the basement of my mother in law 😂
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### Author:  [@Trying\_to\_learn](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Trying_to_learn)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 06:36 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/55 "2024-03-08T06:36:19Z")
If the pumps are not FULLY SUBMERSIBLE that may be a problem is the water level got too high.
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 06:51 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/56 "2024-03-08T06:51:13Z")
Yes that indeed seems to be the problem. But one of the pumps worked fine with a water level of max 4 cm high. And I already reached out to Karcher, and they say it should work. Which is what I expected, because their manual also mentions that. Will get back into contact with them, and hopefully they can explain me what I am doing wrong...
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### Author:  [@Trying\_to\_learn](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Trying_to_learn)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 06:53 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/57 "2024-03-08T06:53:10Z")
Just saying...
If it is still _NEW_, I'd ask them to send you a new/replacement one and see what happens.
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### Author:  [@Buckskin](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/Buckskin)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 09:50 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/58 "2024-03-08T09:50:50Z")
Take that a blockage in the outlet has been checked for?
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 21:46 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/59 "2024-03-08T21:46:30Z")
Yes checked everything. As soon as I manually add more water it starts really pumping away the water. Read somewhere that this might be caused by air in the pumping house, so the fan only lets the air rotate instead of pumping away water. But that is what this pump is designed for, so it would be weird. Need to contact their support desk.
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### Author:  [@hotNipi](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/hotNipi)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 22:02 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/60 "2024-03-08T22:02:34Z")
Water pump can't pump air anyhow. Don't trust labels, start pump when impeller is fully submersed and potential swirl doesn't break the water intake to pump. Means - let the water rise enough.
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### Author:  [@BartButenaers](https://discourse.nodered.org/u/BartButenaers)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 22:12 UTC](https://discourse.nodered.org/t/urgent-electronic-problem-drive-pump-with-2-switches/84221/61 "2024-03-08T22:12:00Z")
> [@hotNipi](#):
>
> start pump when impeller is fully submersed
Yes I created a test setup in my garden two weeks ago, so I could do the tests with all kind of water heights. And I have send my results to Karcher. But can't fully submerge the pump in the basement, because that would mean my entire basement would be filled with water...
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