How to reduce peak consumption (hems)

[TotallyInformation]

@BartButenaers

However I think that there are a lot of exceptions that you have to take into account: by an event of the kids you suddenly have an extra machine of laundry to do, or you need to cook earlier because you forgot that you had to go somewhere, ...

And exceptions are a killer for ML. At best the model gives the wrong output for the exception. At worst it learns from the exception resulting in an incorrect model for the future.

And households are particularly bad for modelling since the small number of actors results if very large noise levels (I'm talking data not the output of your teenager!)

@BartButenaers

Seems to me that she should be able to add the washing cycle easily somewhere into the daily schedule (ad hoc)!!!

Maybe you need a weight sensor in the laundry basket!

@BartButenaers

If you want completely avoid all exceptions, then a fixed schedule in Node-RED might be also sufficient. Is that correct, or do I see it wrong?

I would have thought a set of standard items, each with a power cost - then you could easily spot when your selected items go over the power limit.

But would anyone really use it? Does the rest of your household really want to be treated like robots?

@BartButenaers

When Node-RED starts my washing machine, there is no way for me to start the cycle. It will wait until I enter the time interval and hit the 'start' button...

Yep, our new A+++ LG washer goes to a null state when turned on, you have to select the wash cycle after turning on.

[TotallyInformation]

@Nodi.Rubrum

Their numbers are what qualifies the actually billing.

Don't forget to also take into account power factor if you are trying to compare local measurements against what your provider charges. Many providers use power factor from "smart" meters to let them charge you more. So I'm told (by BigClive).

[TotallyInformation]

This has reminded me of the reason I started with Node-RED in the first place. That most "smart" home devices are far too expensive for any realistic payback. While there are exceptions, most of my work on the problem as been about convenience and fun not cost saving.

Even the cost of a bunch of power monitors, what does that add up to?

Then there is the relay problem. Particularly if you have noisy mains, it seems that relays die rather too often for comfort. That alone might put pay to your experiments when the Mrs came home to a disaster resulting from a failed relay.

The more you try to automate, the more you have to take the edge-cases into account and the more you realise that there are a lot of edges!

[Nodi.Rubrum]

Found a really really cheap monitoring system. I told my nephew if he watched the washing machine and told me every time it changed cycle, I would give him 25 cents per cycle change... so about $1 US each time he watched a load... this system worked great, made sure he did not pester me or the dachshunds, for a couple of hours each time. Unfortunately, the solution only worked until he was 6 years old. I think total, he made about $10 total.

[BartButenaers]

@hotNipi

the comfort part (lead by my wife) overruled all schedule intentions

Same here. Seems to be an international issue
So you have none of your devices scheduled anymore??

@TotallyInformation

build all of the data into the device via a configuration and make that discoverable.

Ah yes discovery is another thing. Might indeed be easier compared to manual configuration in Node-RED. But I'm afraid that is next level for me ...

@TotallyInformation

fridge made in the last few years will always do a better job at stabilising its power usage better than you ever could

Good point. I should really start measuring the consumption of devices, before I start deciding anything...

@TotallyInformation

Not going to happen unless she is a lot more patient than my wife. No matter how easy you make it.

Again we have an international issue...
But let's discuss further, and pretend that all wifes have disappeared from our planet.
My god, that must be a silent place to live

@TotallyInformation

I would have thought a set of standard items, each with a power cost - then you could easily spot when your selected items go over the power limit.
But would anyone really use it? Does the rest of your household really want to be treated like robots?

Yes I indeed was thinking of defining power costs for the devices in Node-RED, to allow Node-RED to know which devices can run simultaneously.
Don't want to treat my household as robots. But in small and medium sized enterprises, they also don't turn on their devices all at once to avoid ridicilous high energy bills due to energy peaks. Since such billing mechanisms will become standard for us to, we will have to deal with (whether we like it or not). Or just pay the bill of course ...

Found some funny pictures here, when combined tell exactly why I started this discussion:

Although lots of the sites is about shifting the electric usage to off-peak time periods, because electricity is cheaper during some periods of the day. However when you need to pay based on peak consumption, things become even worse: then you need to pay a high bill even if you have a very short peak at one moment during a longer billing period ...

But in both cases the high consumer devices should run as much as possible in the offf-peak hours: washing machines, clothes dryers, dishwashers, heating, recirculation pumps, pool pumps, ...

Had a quick read about the advantages of an (expensive) smart washing machine:

1. Remote diagnostics: I not really need that, since I can accomplish most of that via the machine itself.
2. Cycle status notifications to receive an alert when the cycle is finished: that is useful.
3. Remote activation: that is really useful for me, since it offers much more possibilities (compared to a simple scheduler).
4. Some devices even lightly tumble your clothes every couple of minutes for air to flow through until it detects you’ve come back via the Wi-Fi link in your home. Just to avoid that you laundry isn't smelling or rumpled when you get home later as expected.
5. ...

It would be nice if I could somehow be able to accomplish option 3 with my dumb machine. So that after the wife has put everything in the machine, she just schedules in Node-RED when the laundry should be ready. Like in the Samsung laundry app:

But of course - even if that would be possible somehow - I still wouldn't be able to let Node-RED schedule my washing machine, to avoid peaks during the day. To be able to do that, I should have option 4, since then it doesn't really matter that the laundry is ready exactly when you arrive home.

So it might be better to fixate the washing machine in the schedule, since it needs to be ready exactly when you want it to be ready. On the other hand other devices (like pumps...) have lower priorities, so they might be scheduled by Node-RED at other times to avoid peak consumption.

Does this makes sense?

[TotallyInformation]

@BartButenaers

But let's discuss further, and pretend that all wifes have disappeared from our planet.
My god, that must be a silent place to live

In that case, everything will always work like clockwork and nobody ever needs to touch anything - ever! However, all the machines do something completely useless and we men end up living in caves wearing permanently dirty underwear as our only clothing

@BartButenaers

But in small and medium sized enterprises, they also don't turn on their devices all at once to avoid ridicilous high energy bills due to energy peaks. Since such billing mechanisms will become standard for us to, we will have to deal with (whether we like it or not).

Ah, but that is a totally different use-case. And in that case, the number of people involved mean that you most likely can use machine learning to standardise and control things.

Indeed, though I am not an industrial control expert, I know enough about office building to know that this is exactly how most large offices work.

@BartButenaers

when combined tell exactly why I started this discussion

Don't get me wrong, I understand why. Though here in the UK, we generally still get charged a flat rate for electricity - sometimes with a second rate for off-peak charging.

Frankly, if I - let alone the rest of my family - had to spend much time sorting out our power usage budget, we simply wouldn't! I'm happy to be able to get people to turn off the lights and stop them turning up the heating when going to bed! And even the cost of leaving the lights on has come right down with the advent of LED's.

And, to be honest, I'm probably the worst culprit when it comes to power use as I'm surrounded by 7 laptops, 3 Pi's and assorted ESP's. With 2 big monitors. Though I have to say that this is offset by the fact that I rarely turn on the heating in my office

@BartButenaers

Had a quick read about the advantages of an (expensive) smart washing machine

Ours is certainly not smart in the IoT sense. But it tells us how long is left on the cycle - urm, that's all we need! It has a diagnostic thing that lets you hold your phone microphone close to the display which sends data to LG if something is wrong.

@BartButenaers

Some devices even lightly tumble your clothes every couple of minutes for air to flow through until it detects you’ve come back via the Wi-Fi link in your home

Our tumble drier does that but with an annoying beep that soon gets you to empty it No need for Wi-Fi. And there is always the iron!

@BartButenaers

It would be nice if I could somehow be able to accomplish option 3

Time to train up the dog? Training the cat might be a bit of a stretch though a parrot could probably be trained quite readily.

Our washing machine does, of course, have a timer option that lets you say when you want it to be finished. Probably easier to set that on the machine anyway rather than having to go off to another interface.

Sorry to be the old stick-in-the-mud here, I more than most, would really love for smart devices to be smarter and cheaper. But the truth is that we are still a long ways off.

[hotNipi]

@BartButenaers

So you have none of your devices scheduled anymore??

The other devices are electric water heaters and floor heating system. Easy to allocate to any type of scheduling (big inertia, barely noticeable influence). But i don't measure the consumption of them but just balancing between comfort and savings with price driven hourly schedules, calculated at midnight for next day.

Once the system was launched, I monitored the outcome and mostly the daily report of overall usage of electricity looks like this.
Black line is price, bars represent the consumption

[TotallyInformation]

Now there is a sensible target for this kind of thing.

[hominidae]

@BartButenaers

Found some funny pictures here, when combined tell exactly why I started this discussion:

That exactly shows what the problem is.
Each device only adds a tiny part of the overall consumption.and electricity is still too cheap.
Saving 5W 24x7 where I live, will "only" save 15USD per year.
That what helps is to make it more transparent and compare it to other things that can be understood better, like: "Our EV can drive approx 400km with that amount of energy" (which is true, btw).
This is the intend of having smart meters and an energy consumption portal.
When you are enabled to understand where you can improve and what it will cost/save you, people will start changing habits.
Then they will ask for the solution to this, like a hems, not before that, not now.
So wait till it hurts, then act fast
When we installed our solar array and installed an intelligent grid meter, changing habits of the EV and programming of dishwasher, washing machine and dryer started to change....not for the heat-pumps for hot-water supply and heat...yet.

[Paul-Reed]

I maximise unused solar generated energy, by dumping any energy that is not consumed within my home (washers, toasters etc) into heating water.
So instead of using the gas boiler to heat domestic water, it's always heated in spring/summer by solar surplus.

The yellow trace is the solar generation, and the red is the energy consumed by the water heater, obviously on a sunny day!

[craigcurtin]

We currently do not have storage capacity - for most people batteries do not make economic sense. However in our case as both my wife and i work from home and run our businesses here we get some large tax incentives on the initial purchase price.

We are also with an electricity providert that enables us to arbitrage by buying and selling to the grid, so we are deep into an analysis of this and have worked out we can look at around a 7 year payback on a battery investment.

With the current world uncertainty we have put the actual purchase decision off until March of next year and will then make a decision if we go ahead.

We are String inverter driven with currenly 10Kw of panels - about to go to 15Kw in the next month and will then bump to 20Kw by March.

Our roof setup is not optimum so we are hoping that the 20kw of panels will give a consisent 10Kw of output throughout the day in winter.

We have 2 x 5Kw 3 phase inverters - with the option to upgrade one of them to 10Kw - we are trying to hold off on that at this point as we will probably go 3 for a 3 phase battery solution and are then trying to decide on the most apporpriate inverter/charge to feed them. (or if indeed they are just A/C coupled)

Craig

[BartButenaers]

@hotNipi

balancing between comfort and savings

Ok, I agree with all of you that comfort is very important.
And seems that we have an international problem: men are not allowed to mess with washing machines.
And even if we were allowed to do it, most dumb washing machines are not controllable remotely (due to a.o. scheduling issues).

I would like to discuss HOW I can do it, not WHY I shouldn't do it ...
Because of course energy prices are very different in different countries, and prices will go up in the near future. But I would not like to discuss that, because otherwise we will go off-topic again and never get a decent solution...

I assume we can solve the washing machine problem, by letting Node-RED know that some devices will need to be measured, but cannot be controlled. For example by giving every device a priority between 0 and 9, where 9 means that it cannot be controlled. This way Node-RED can see in the schedule when it can schedule automatically the lower priority devices:

If each device has also a power cost in Node-RED, then Node-RED might be able to do this good (assumed we have a good algorithm).

In the above timeline, the orange block (prio 9) is the washing machine. This could e.g. be scheduled manually. Or when that is not wife-proof we could perhaps just measure it: as soon as we measure that the washing machine is running, we know how long the cycle will take (maximum) and reschedule everything else automatically.

Don't say it will be an easy job. But does this makes sense, or did I forgot something crucial?

[hotNipi]

And for tonight the price of electricity (without taxes) was negative for some hours.
Too much wind, they said...

[craigcurtin]

Yep we have a number of Tasmota flashed power plugs that send alerts etc - these are on the fridge//freezers in the house, the dishwasher, the washing machine and the clothes dryer

The pool pump has Sonoff POWs as does the cleaning system, the solar pump for heatng the pool and the new heat pump for pool/house heating we will be purchasing in the next couple of months will also be controlled by a Sonoff POW. They are great for reading the power draw of each device as well as reporting when they start and stop

Craig

Craig

[hotNipi]

@BartButenaers

Or when that is not wife-proof we could perhaps just measure it: as soon as we measure that the washing machine is running, we know how long the cycle will take (maximum) and reschedule everything else automatically.

@BartButenaers I see you have plan.
Just add couple of tweaks and you'r basically done

1. With presence of Mrs. the coffee machine priority rises by 2 points ...

[craigcurtin]

Do a test with your washing machine, put a load on and start it, then cut the power, wait 5 minutes and turn the power back on and see if the load starts up again - ours does and then just keeps going.

In terms of monitoring and alerting - i have a smart plug on ours - i measure electricity use and once i see if below a 20w draw for 10 minutes i then send out an email that the cycle has finished - takes some trial and error to get it right - but works well now - same thing for the clothes dryer

Craig

[ghayne]

The main reason I have not been so active here lately is that we changed our Supplier to Octopus in June on their Agile TOU Tariff. I have been getting to grips with automating our very old Dishwasher and Tumble dryer to make use of low prices.![Screenshot-47|690x332]
Not much use to you Bart but the prices have also gone negative a few times:

We have saved on average 40% on our monthly bill.

[hominidae]

...yes, I think that approach can work that way.
When you say "power cost", you mean power level, don't you?
For a washing machine, dishwacher, dryer and such, the next level would be to not only have a power level, but rather a power signature (for example, each washing program creates an individual power consumption "graph", which leads to an other, adjusted schedule for the house.

[TotallyInformation]

@BartButenaers

I would like to discuss HOW I can do it

Somewhat extreme but one way to smarten a dumb device is to add robotics to its physical interface. You can already get button pushers that attach over the top of existing buttons and rotating dials shouldn't be beyond reach either.

@BartButenaers

This way Node-RED can see in the schedule when it can schedule automatically the lower priority devices:

As mentioned before, I think that I would start with a manual schedule so that you learn how to make good use of the devices you have. Then you can begin to automate them.

@BartButenaers

If each device has also a power cost in Node-RED

And a startup cost as well as mentioned earlier in this thread.

@BartButenaers

But does this makes sense

Starting to get there I think.

[TotallyInformation]

@ghayne

Agile TOU Tariff

Wow! I thought that was going to be a US thing until I looked at the website and realised it is UK

We are currently with Ovo but I'm not averse to looking at other options.