New smart wifi radiator valves from Shelly

I suspect that the interface is being too chatty. Probably needs tweaking in Zigbee2MQTT to stop it polling every few seconds? Hard to say of course. But that is why I suggested getting a few different ones. Or maybe you just need to go all-in and get a proper boiler controller solution :slight_smile:

The Wiser TRV's only seem to respond after a few seconds. I've not really timed it but certainly 10-15 seconds, maybe a bit more. Timing is somewhat variable which leads me to believe there is a fixed polling interval at play.

I also put them in my shelly card to find out that they are actually ā‚¬72, that is just too much in the jungle of TRV's. I opted for zwave versions for ā‚¬50 a piece about 2 years ago and they served me pretty well. They dont chat much. Battery life is about 1.5 year (double AAs) depending how often you turn them on. I see that they now also have zigbee versions for the same price.

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Looking at all the options here I think it's going to be very expensive to fit out every radiator.
Any potential savings on fuel would take a very long time to recover I think, especially given the UKs plans to phase out gas boilers.

I have my boiler controlled by node red, with time and temperature profiles, every room has a temperature sensor and can be the ambient temp sensor at any given time. So I can choose to heat a particular room to a desired temperature. So on work day mornings I use the my daughters bedroom sensor to heat up to "her" target, on weekend its the living room etc. Most radiators already have "manual" thermostats.

While not as flexible this seems to be a good compromise, and allows Mrs Sean to ask Alexa to make it warmer, in whatever room she is in :wink:

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How can you do that without controllable TRV's?

For most people, the savings will be marginal if anything. In any case, you really need a boiler with OpenTherm controls and a suitable controller in order to get any savings.

This is much more about convenience and comfort. What we find is that what we save by not heating every room to the same level is spent on having the occupied rooms at a more comfortable setting.

That is another piece of madness by a government out of touch with reality.

The truth is that the current housing stock of the UK simply isn't suitable for alternative heating methods. Heat Pumps are a joke for the millions of Victorian terrace houses in the UK for example. District heating takes decades to develop and is very unsuited to many UK geographies. Hydrogen is the most likely realistic alternative to natural gas and that is many years away from having a robust, nationwide delivery capability. Also, hydrogen would still need boilers and it is reasonably likely that commercial smart heating controllers could be firmware upgraded to cope with the differences.

Bottom line is that your gas heating is likely to be around for at least the life of your next boiler - likely we are looking at a 20 year timescale at least.

As I said its a poor mans solution to the problem that some rooms are naturally colder than others. This solution keeps boiler run time to a minimum while making sure the cooler rooms are comfortable at the times needed.

The problem I had was using only one central temperature sensor to switch the boiler on and off. If the room where it was located hits target before other areas then they will never reach target.

As I know when I want particular rooms to be at a certain temperature, I automatically change the sensor used to control the boiler, to the one in that room so the boiler runs until that room is heated.

The existing manual thermostat valves "should" prevent any given room getting too hot.

Although the ladies in the house never find it "too" hot. :smiley:

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I dunno about that Julian (although i am in Oz) - there are a number of good solutions that integrate heatpumps (CO2 based) so they work in cold weather and provide a centralised heat store for both domestic hot water and Hydronic heating.

Everyone knows that we have to get off Fossil Fuels ASAP and the way the social mindset is going it will be pretty hard to resist that in the near future.

I think the only place in the world where they make worse insulated houses is in Oz - but we suffer from the other extreme - heat waves and poorly built and insulated houses - so nearly everyone has AC.

We do have a state (Victoria) that has a high penetration of gas for domestic heating and they are starting to make moves to firstly restrict any new rollouts and then will start offering financial support to move to Reverse Cycle AC for winter heating.

Craig

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Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. It isn't that they don't work. Its that they need the right environment in which to work. Heat Pumps need a suitable source of heat from the environment and that takes space. Either garden or roof space and lots of it, especially the further north you get (or south in your case :slight_smile: ). We are above 53Ā°N, roughly level with Newfoundland. The equivalent down your end of the world would be 1,000 km south from the southern tip of Tasmania (over a 1/3 of the way across the Southern Ocean to Antarctica).

Also, many houses in the UK are tightly packed with small, often overlooked gardens and many houses are quite small. Here in Sheffield, the majority of houses are terraced, often with postage stamp gardens and the hills are steep.

Heat Pump based heating not only needs significant surface area to collect heat but also needs highly insulated houses (at least in this climate) - something that is extremely hard to achieve in small Victorian terraced housing.

Unfortunately, most of our government live in large properties with large gardens in the South. They will have no problems at all converting to heat pumps. But 10's of millions of people in the UK don't live that way. Even in our house - which is quite large for Sheffield and has a decent garden - we really struggle to get good insulation having solid stone walls on 2 sides and solid brick elsewhere and we are exposed on 2 sides being high on a hill. Because of the steepness of the terrain, our garden isn't really suitable for heat collection either since, for much of the year, it is in shadow.

Area heating is another option but is poorly suited to cities with steep hills. The other side of Sheffield does have some area heating based on the incinerator and that services a region of flats. But the terrain there is very different to where we are. Other northern cities are even worse off.

I'm more aware of that than most people and I've been having some discussions with our energy provider. But ignoring reality isn't going to help anyone. We have to back the technologies that work, not ones that don't in our case.

The UK has long had a serious housing crisis that means we are 100's of thousands of dwellings short already. Nobody is going to be suggesting widespread clearance of existing housing stock - we did that decades ago to get rid of old slums. Focus is on new housing and rightly, there is now finally a bit more focus on getting them better insulated from the outset.

Figures from 2010 show around 22.4 million dwellings in the UK, of which some 6.9 million didn't have cavity walls and 64% of these "had building features that would probably make the installation of solid wall insulation more expensive or problematic". Around 22% of dwellings were built before 1919. Around 22% are flats.

I'd be delighted to move away from gas heating and I'm always on the lookout for what is happening with alternative heating, but we have to be realistic as well.

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@BartButenaers check to see if they have a valve body chart, not all TRV's threads are the same!! And do you know what make of TRV valve body you have at home?

Would 2nd the noise note. I have self-powered valves from Mircoplet they are quiet < 35 dB(A) where as the battery operated ones I have are very noisy.

From your description your control strategy sounds like weather compensation do you have outdoor temp sensor? Or use a weather underground to get a local weather stn reading. You can use those to adjust setpoints. The other thing to learn is how long it takes to raise the room temp by 1C that will help with timings. Agreed setpoint targets: bedrooms typically 18C, living room 20/21C, but there is always the PAF (partner acceptance factor) thermal comfort is very personal!

Also if your using the valve to measure room temp it will be highly influenced by it's position next to the RAD so setpoints will needed be adjusted to suite or if the Shelly allows it use a remote room temp measurement and send it to the eTRV

No. You cannot charge whilst in use. Apparently, the heat generated by the charging disrupts the internal temperature sensor. (The creator of these frequents the Facebook Shelly page).

One of the key advantages of these is you can control the steps directly, rather than use the inbuilt temperature sensor and just set a required temp.

I will eventually (once all the bugs are ironed out) use one of these to control the flow temps of my UFH. As the room approaches temperature, so the flow temp ramps down to reduce overshoot, then it can run at low temp to maintain the room temp. You can also run the flow hotter to speed up the heating uptime. Currently, my flow temp is fixed.

I have self-powered valves from Mircoplet

that is next level stuff, how does this work ? cool beans. Where can you get those ? Tried some searches, no luck.

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Looks like all the distributors are in Germany!

EH 4 GmbH
Am Gansacker 10a
D-79224 Umkirch, Germany
Phone +49 7665 93 21 83-0
E-Mail: info(at)micropelt.com Ā»

Even Germans canā€™t work miracles

USB rechargeable

No need to change batteries does not say that there are none :laughing:

But ā€ženergy harvestingā€œ is such a great buzzword! Follow Dave on the EEVblog for more info on ā€žpiss ampā€œ output of these technologies. Nice to power a sensor or a pushbutton but by far not enough to sustainable power a motorized valve (even hard to keep up with self discharge)

And I can think of the price point of these. Ok for companies having thousands of valves to service. I donā€˜t have a problem dropping in two AA every two years - donā€™t want to replace special lipo batteries if they got damaged because of bad BMS.

And ā€¦ who designed that case? :pleading_face:

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Yes, the case looks like someones first attempt at 3D printing :slight_smile:

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Hi only available in EU if your looking to use the EnOcean version but you will need a USB dongle

Theory of operation Micropelt: Energy Harvesting
BTW these devices have been available for many years with 10s of thousands installed

// Available at

www.greenelectric.eu
www.jaeger-direkt.com
www.knxshop4u.ch

Hi @iiLaw,
Yes you are right about a couple of things: since the temperature sensor is near the radiator, it will be required to auto-correct it with some constant value (to estimate the temperature in the center of the room). And indeed an outside temperature sensor would be useful to estimate better how fast the setpoint temperature can be reached.
But at this moment I would already be pleased with a basic setup: a wireless thermostatic valve on each radiator, that can be controlled both manually or via Node-RED. In the latter case I can schedule the heating, e.g. to make sure the bathroom is not cold in the morning.
If I could get such a basic setup running, then I can add extra functionality in the future. But those devices are pretty expensive...

I think and know that for sensors and pushbuttons solar or piezo electric sources work. Using wall Controllers with an LCD and buttons powerd by a 10x40mm solar cell.

But a valve powered by dc motor and doing a full cycle every time I open then windows I have my doubts. How are they powered? Thermo electric? (Or by nuclear diamonds :laughing:).

Some can do the math (2 AA for two years)

Think there are many usecases for energy harvesting but a motorized valve is currently not one that comes into my mind at the beginning.

EEVblog #1333 - Nuclear Diamond Self-Charging Battery DEBUNKED! - YouTube and all the other free lifetime energy scams

Out of my experience over the last years

  • noise is not an issue (the movement is quite short and I believe the firmware is quite good in reaching the setpoint. The valve is analog so there are only minor adjustments over time. Only during window close and open cycles. But these are the biggest energy savers in my experience (my family and I often forget to close them in time heating the Berlin air)
  • Temperature offset is there same as in all corners of your room or on different levels. Find the point you feel comfortable and donā€˜t look on the absolute values
  • Batteries are a no problem as long as they last min one year better two. With a good reporting I change them in a minute.

I will try one of the 30+ā‚¬ cheap zigbee valves just out of curiosity (as I just done my complete zigbee setup new (with the new sonoff usb stick) and as the heating period reach its peak there sr some discounts.

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Probably Peltier elements, hence the name Micropelt.

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Chris, thanks for all the feedback! I am very curious to hear about your experiment later!!!

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Still think itā€™s not worth the effort. 30-60ct per year per valve with quality alkaline AAs ā€¦ I donā€˜t know the invest + lipo/lion/lfepo4 replacement at least every 10 years for this solution. Makes only sense in a professional large installation where you donā€˜t want to send a technician to change batteries. The battery in the lora water meter will be changed every 15 years (together with the meter for calibration).

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